The attached picture of my late father (WW2 RAF CPL) is wearing and undress ribbon, can anyone identify the ribbon? Being in black and white makes things difficult, to me I imagine red, blue, white. The 1939-1945 star is the closest but it is dark blue, red, light blue so I had to count that one out. He didn't have any medals in his personal effects or noted on his sevice record.
Hi billybee welcome to the forum. The medal does look like the 1939-45 star. It has often been mentioned that certain types of photographic film used at that time completely throws colours out of synch, and what one imagines would the correct colours, turn out not to be. This is often the case in WW2 photos of aircraft markings. Even contemporary colour photos taken at the same time give different results. Have a look at the same medal ribbon on the following link. Note how dark the blue looks on the picture on the right in comparison to the one on the left: ODM of the United Kingdom: 1939-45 Star If you can give us a name and service number we maybe able to have a further look.
Good point Kyt. I just looked at an image of my father taken just after his service in New Guinea. He has the ribbons of the '39-45 Star and the Pacific Star and the former looks very much like the photo here. The 'shades' of colours do show up very differently in Black and White. Cheers Owen
Not just medals. RAF roundal colours, especially in the Far East almost get reversed in pictures. Very strange phenomena.
Yes, I saw an article in FlyPast recently where there was a debate about the colour of a Gladiator's wheel hubs. I think it related to an article on 'Cobber' Kain from memory. They struck the same issue regarding B&W images. Cheers Owen
And it all depends upon what film was used - which makes creating a sort of "comparison chart" from known colours extremely difficult
For a comparison, Here's a cropped image of the 1939-45 Star and Pacific Star on Dad's jacket as previously mentioned. View attachment 1393 Cheers Owen
Wow! Really! That much of a colour shift. Okay since no medal existed that I could find matched the b&w image, you folks got me convinced. My father was a Flight engineer, CPL George Barter 1052585. He served with 82 Sqn and 114 Sqn at RAF Thornaby before going to Canada for training at 34 OTU Penfield Ridge NB, he returned to the UK to EAAS and there his records are murky until the end of the war when he was returned to the reserves July 46 and discharged a year later. Cheers BillyBee
Wasn't it unusual for a Flight Engineer to be a Corporal? I thought that after about 1940, aircrew were always at least Sergeants. Was this photo taken while he was still training, in which case he may have still been a Corporal? He must have been good at his job to be selected for officer training (which must have been the reason for going to an OTU); not many Flt Engineers were officers. Which leads to another thought: if he was only a Corporal when the photo was taken, it must have been taken during the war. Surely the 1939-45 Star was not issued until after the war ended, so is this ribbon something else?
The 1939-45 Star was originally meant to be the 39-43 Star according to a friend of mine that flew Tiffies with 184 Squadron and was worn by many that enlisted early in the war, it having been awarded under the 39-43 criteria. This is a pic of him in April 1945 and shows the ribbon Rod
It can be a nightmare, especially for modellers. Was this information gleaned from conversations with your father, billybee, or from his service records? If from service records, could you provide us with dates and/or a scan because, as Adrian states below, there are some interesting postings here. 114 Squadron used Thornaby between March and May 1941. 34 OTU came into existance in January 1942. EAAS was Empire Air Armament School based at R.A.F. Manby (though note 100 % certain I think this was a training school for armourers and bomb disposal, as well as development work). As you can see, we are intrigued. Adrian, the service number implies 1939 enlistment. But as you say, by the time Star was issued, even taking into Digger's additional information about the 1939-43 Star, aircrew were a minimum of Sergeant. Until late into the BoB period, there were plenty of LACs and Cpls flying. Operational, not Officer Training Unit, Adrian 34 OTU trained aircrew on a variety of aircraft Billybee, do you know when the photo was taken?
My father died when I was young and he wasn't one for passing on war stories and there was confict with his family in the UK with him immigating to Canada. His effects show a CPL stripe, Flt Engr wing, Atlantic star ribbon and a 1939-1945 ribbon. I do have one picture of him with what is proving to be a 1939-1945 ribbon before he had his F/E wing, that when he was a F.II(A). The first picture shows him with his Flt Engr wing, other pictures of him didn't. I would think it would have been after September 1944 as that was when he returned from 32 SFTS (MooseJaw, Ab) for flight training. I did find it unusual researching his RAF time that he was not a SGT, at least an A/SGT. He went ACAS/EAAS after DDAY and 7 months before VE DAY. I have memories of him complaining of food in the desart and China but the records don't indicate that, and he wasn't above a good story either. I am pleased that there is an intrest in this tread as these kinds of records are not easy to follow. After the war he worked for AVROE and when they folded to CANADAIR. When he died he was a Preventive Maintenance Planning Engineer. Tks BillyBee
So after he joined up he spent post of the war as groundcrew before being mustered fpr aircrew training. It seems that he was still in the process of completing that when the war Europe ended. As a long timer there wouldn't have been much push for him to to be shipped to the Far East. It also explains why he has the Corporal's stripes as he wouldn't have been promoted yet (the automatic promotion to sergeant for aircrews tended to happen near the end of training). It would also explain why he doesn't have the Aircrew Star but he should have received The 1939-45 War Medal. But as we've already discussed, he appears to have received the 1939-45 Star which implies that he did serve operationally overseas. Taking his dates for 82 Squadron, he may have been in France in 1940 with the squadron. Thanks for posting that billybee, very interesting. I shall have another look later.
I did know that really! :doh: My next question was going to be: since the role of Flight Engineers was not created until early 42, eventually replacing second pilots, why was he still a Corporal when Corporals were no longer aircrew? But the above quote explains it. Billybee: I presume you know that 82 and 114 squadron were flying Blenheims in the early part of the war. The light bomber squadrons suffered horrendously due to being expected to attack well defended targets in daylight. Of course, there was no other way - early in the war, when bombing at night it was all they could do to find a city, let alone a small target such as an airfield or a dock facility so these had to be attacked in daylight. Your father must have been around during some harrowing times - no wonder he didn't speak about them. This is from the entry on 82 sqdn from rafweb.org: In 1940 the squadron [82] received a new commanding officer in the form of Wing Commander The Earl of Bandon. On 17 May 1940, his squadron was detailed to carry out a raid against German columns around Gembloux. When the expected fighter escort did not arrive, having already been intercepted by Bf109's, the twelve Blenheims pressed on to the target and were themselves attacked by Bf109's. All but one of the aircraft were shot down and that one [flown by Bandon; he survived because he as at the front of the formation so the most difficult to catch] collapsed when it landed back at base. Faced with a squadron consisting of himself, one flight commander, two Sergeant pilots and the ground crews, it was planned to disband the squadron but Paddy Bandon put forward the case on behalf of the ground crews that the squadron should be re-equipped and won the day. That evening twelve new Blenhiems were delivered together with their crews. The following day they carried out a practice flight and that night he led six of them on raid into Germany. This quality of leadership earned him a well deserved DSO. Adrian
Thank you Kyt and Adrian...reading the histories of these squadrons make your blood run cold. But I've learnt a lot reading your different comments. As a note, the Medal office did send me the Defence Medal and the War medal 1939-45 which he was not awarded before he left home. Now that I feel sure that the ribbon is the 1939-1945 star, I can get replicas for the two stars and get the others properly mounted to be displayed with his WWI father's and mine. Our military family ends with me...God willing! My son wasn't interested. BillyBee
Ebay would be a good place for original stars if one buys from reputable sellers with good feedback. As regards the two squadrons, there is no official history of 82 but this covers the relevant period Familiar Voices: Amazon.co.uk:: Frank Harbord Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be anything specific about 114.
Yes, Andy, The courage and dedication to duty of these pilots and crews are much to be admired. You probally got much more but these are the ones that I've read RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary Kyt: I can see the value that a collector has in war medals, as a rememberance and honour of the deed and recipent. My grandfather's medals and mine are engraved with our name and service number and couldn't see trading or selling them and I hope nothing like that happens after I'm gone (mine are just been there long enough and done that there types). WW2 medals are not engraved to my knowledge and that moral hangup is lessened. Still the question would be what does one do with unwanted and rare medals...no answer from me...but as a replacement, I'll use a replica rather than an origional. I pass no judgement on collectors or traders ebay. But thank you for suggesting. BillyBee
