I'm going to Kew this Saturday my first visit to try & find out about my Great Grandfather Bertram George Martin b 1877 killed in action 21.11.1917 service number P/854 or P/354. Can anyone give me some tips on what to do I'm a novice at this. My Dad said his Grandfather was the 'black sheep of the family' and no one ever discussed him I'd like to try & find out why? thanks Wendy
Hi Wendy and welcome ! P/854 medal roll says just 10th overseas - but he most definitely would have been in the 16th first which was formed in the St. Pancras area ! Do you have that already ? I'm sure Andy will drop by soon ..... he'll tell you everything you ever wanted to know !! Annie
Hi Wendy, Welcome to the forum. I had posted a long reply out with the details of your Great Grandfathers record only for the forum not too accept it and needing to log in again. He originally enlisted in the 16th Rifle Brigade and after this moved around a little, going to the 17th Rifle Brigade, 2nd (Home Service) Northamptonshire Regiment, 5th Rifle Brigade, 12th Rifle Brigade and then the 10th Rifle Brigade. Going overseas on the 7/2/17 and arriving in Havre on the 8/2/17 to the 47th Infantry Base Depot. Certainly his conduct sheets leave a bit of a trail of absent off leave, dirty rifle, bad language to an N.C.O., unwashed, late on parade, in bed against orders for which he received numerous small sentences of confined to barracks, forfeiting 7 days pay but nothing serious enough to call him the black sheep during his time in the Military. He was only 19 on enlistment so I do not know if he was a bit of a tearaway before his military service. With regards to Kew, I think between Annie and myself we can furnish you everything with regard to his military service, certainly I can give you his medal roll, service record, battalion war diary, brigade and divisional reports on the action he died in. Andy
Hi Andy, Thank you for so much info. I belong to Ancestry & have just the info available on there. I didn't know that Bertie had moved around so much all I knew about was the 10th battalion. Someone said to me that men in the Rifle Brigade were usually well educated is this usually correct and that he was probably a sniper? Bertie's first two children were born out of wed lock so perhaps that had something to do with his reputation. I would love to have info on his miltary service etc and details of the action on the day he died. Last year I went on a Leger Battlefields tour of the WW1 battlefields and saw Bertie's name engraved on the memorial. I think that made me want to find out more, it made him real. Regards Wendy
Hi Annie, thanks yes Andy has contacted me via this page and seems to have lots of info on my relative, I only knew about the 10th not about the other battalions. Yes St Pancras is correct they lived in and around Paddington. Wendy
Wendy, His medal roll, entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal. If you go into Soldiers Service Records on Ancestry and put Bertram George Martin into the search box you will find his records. Andy
Hi Andy, I found the records you meant and had a look and yes its the correct service number and a Bertram George Martin but he is far to young to be my relative. My Bertram Martin was born 1877 aged 37 at the start of the war (real name George Bertrand Martin but married as Bertram George Martin) there is no way he was mistaken for a 19 year old?. He had a son of the same name Bertram George Martin born 1898 St Pancras but we know that this son survived the war and went to Australia. I have tried to find a birth for the one named on service number P/854 but none are an obvious match on FreeBMD for 1896 as it's not a common name. I'm totally confused now, I had always believed that Bertram George Martin who died 1917 was my Great Grandfather but now it would not seem so? Wendy
Hi Wendy, It was not unknown for soldiers to understage their age to get a place in a line regiment rather than be placed as corps troops such as the RASC, but thats quite a difference. Have you had a look at the statement of names and addresses signed by his mother in May 1919?? No father listed, so presumably he had died at an earlier date. Mother Elizabeth A. Martin, address 27 North Avenue, King's Cross Brothers:- 1. Percy Charles, aged 35. 2. William John, aged 34, address given as France so presumably still serving in the Forces in May 1919. Sisters:- 1. Lena (looks like) aged 31 2. Elsie, aged 28 3. Primrose, aged 19. Do any of these names mean anything to you??? Andy
Hi Andy, This brings up more questions than answers. On Ancestry I have checked out the 1901 census to try & find the family mentioned in the records and I just can't find them. My Bertie did have a brother William John Martin b 1874, and a brother Arthur Percy known as Percy b 1889, a sister Elsie b 1896, and a sister Kathleen b 1886, but he also had several more brothers & sisters. Also Bertie's Mother died in 1907 and she was called Mary not Elizabeth though his Father could have remarried? I had booked my train ticket to London so I shall still go on Saturday and shall try and find a census entry for 1911 for P/854 Bertram Martin's family. I have my Bertam Martin on the 1911 census but when his daughter married in 1927 the marriage certificate shows he was deceased. I cannot find a death enrty. Thank you for your interest & help. Wendy
Oh Bugger!!!! I think is the expression Might be time to bring the big guns out in regard to the family material, Annie where are you Wendy, I am an absolute duffer when it comes to digging out the nitty gritty on the familes and have asked Annie on many occasion if she could help out. Come out Come out wherever you are Annie, can you help Wendy get to the bottom of this. Andy
That's strange Andy. I got an e-mail from Annie in the early hours of the morning. Hello Wendy, Although I haven't had a chance to look at the service record yet, I've had a dig around for the family of Bertram P/854. Like you, I can't find them in 1901, but have found them in 1891: RG12; Piece 130; Folio 97; Page 11 No. 30 Pancras Road. James C Martin; Head; 34; Carriage Cleaner; born Hatfield Elizabeth A; Wife; 30; born Bradwell Percy C; 6; born Stratford William J; 4; born Islington Elsie R; 3; born Clerkenwell Lena; 5 months; born St Pancras James Charles Martin married Elizabeth Annie Douce (June Qu.1882 West Ham 4a 25) Percy Charles appears to have married Sarah Rachel Drummond (Sept Qu. 1907 Islington 1b 406) and is in the Holborn area in 1911. I have also found the births of Lena and Primrose May in passing, both in the Pancras Reg. District. Primrose married an Albert G Carroll in Islington in 1921, by the looks of it. Phil
Hi Phil, 1st May 1919 signed by mother as statement of names and addresses of all the relatives of the above named soldier.
Hi Guys ! I'm *A poor right now I'm afraid !! .... so I couldn't come up with the goods !! Though I did try calling in the troops ... if you'll pardon the pun ! The 19 year old one who died is definitely not yours Wendy ! .... that George Bertram Martin was living at the same address in the 1911 census aged 12. I received this from Mo !
Wendy, If it is the man that Mo identified do these names of his wife and children ring any bells with you??? Andy
Other than Bertram Junior is missing, that is an exact match for the family that is in Hampstead in 1911. I'm beginning to lose the plot, but there is a Bertram G Martin, age 12, in Westminster in 1911, but I can't get any other Martins to come up on the index with him. Phil
Hi Andy, Well I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to Kew and I did find the Martin family in 1911 living in North Ave, Kings Cross. Bertram G Martin was listed as aged 12 on the census so had he lied about his age when he joined up? So he isn't my Great Grandfather, it just seems so strange to have two bertram George Martin's living within a mile or so of each other not related. It's not the most common of names. Back to the drawing board. thanks Wendy
Hi Wendy, Glad that you enjoyed your day at Kew, sorry though that is back to the drawing board!! Sometimes infuriating this research lark. Andy
Hi Andy, I tend to type & then read later, didn't realise that there were 2 pages of info/msgs and that my 'Martin' was on the next page!!! I did find his records on Ancestry and he seems to have signed up under his real name of George Bertrand Martin rather than the name he married with Bertrie George Martin. thank you everyone for all your help Wendy
