I said dont see point of relating, people getting bitter about "still war anyway" here something to be proud off, defending, and fighting a true evil, a vast wave even good men caught up in, and our tiny island stood alone for a time, theres no getting around the truly just cause, that was apparant to the allied soldiers who came across the camps, deny it to them
This question was one of the main reasons that the decison was made to throw open the camps after their discovery by Allied forces. Eisenhower foresaw the day when even reasonable people would begin to doubt that such an horrendous crime could have taken place. Unfortunately, his efforts were in vain. Today many people, for whatever their reasons, continue to question that crime of such scale could have even taken place.
The nazis considered jews less than them, the jews consider that about everyone,they are the chosen people right! they walk inbroad daylight,do not talk superior but thats hardwired into them, a basis belief, not in words but ultimatley there, no one deserves to be tortured, dehumanised and killed but go no time for fools, without an independant thought in the head
What the hell do u mean, team rose, u also believe we landed on the moon, keep seeing it and its pointless remark
Talk of stalin, he murdered many more than hitler, maybe he was a nessesary evil, in order to fight nazism, think about it, the cold war or thousand year reich, mysterious ways
As the russians done a vast bulk of the fighting, stalingrad being a turning point in the war, they also make some of the best films of the war, the great patriotic war, as they know it by
Not all Jews consider others less than them. While they are God's Chosen People, they are still human and under the same scrutiny as anybody else. If anything, they are held to a higher accountability because God wanted to bless the earth through them, not have them hold their status like a barrier between them and the Gentile. Any Jew who reads the Torah and Writings should understand this. I know not all do, but that is a big part of the Old Testament.
Always seemed a little odd to me that none of the defendants in any of the numerous war crimes trials since the war have claimed that the Holocaust never happened. They have tried everything from "It wasn't me" to "I was only following orders", but not one has said it never happened. Just goes to show that maybe the evidence that the deniers claim to have wouldn't hold up in a court of law.
My father was one of the British soldiers who had to clean up Bergen-Belsen. One day a guy in a pub denied the holocaust happened. It was the only time I ever saw my father hit anyone. Enough said.
The question at hand is: did the Holocaust (1933-1945) actually happen? First, please define the term "Holocaust". Someone, anyone?
Holocaust (or Shoa) is the "targeted" mass murder of Jews ( some historians also say as well Gypsies and Russian prisoners) by Germany and her Allies in World War Two. Note I do not say Nazis since while it was Nazi policy many non-Nazis participated in this criminal action.
I find this curious, a point of difference, which may lead to 'debate'. I see the "Holocaust" as the NSDAP policy of the purification of the Volk (basically the collective Germanic Society) by the elimination of 'racial impurities' in the genetic pool (basically everybody). While the end result may be the same, a lot of exterminated people, the distinction lies in the starting point. With depiction people were seemingly killed for their religion, while the other they were killed (or culled from the genetic pool) in an attempt to improve society. I pedantically make the distinction because in the first case one might avoid the serious consequences by religious conversion (though this was a multi-generational process, ergo impractical), while in the second scenario the list of culled is extended beyond just the religious set. And as it developed it was the case of a greater set of people than just Jews. There were all sorts of 'untermensch' to be culled: Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, habitual criminals, the mentally defective, Bible scholars, Freemasons, Communists, and Social Democrats. I make the distinction because sometimes it seems as if some wish to limit the victims of the Holocaust to ONLY Jews, as if no one else died. I do rise to my pedantic heights because I feel that someone needs to speak for the OTHER VICTIMS.
During '32 - '33, Nazis had seen a fake (would have been) social threat from the Romas, Russians, Poles etc. So their master's mind worked out for a strategic genocide to eleminate this socio-econo-political threat (¿ ¡) . For the nomenclature Holocaust, in connection to this strategic genocide, I aint have any system oriented knowledge to share. holokaustos, a Greek root ward, probably stands for a huge destruction, caused by fire.
In his 1992 book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, a study of German Order Police; Reserve Unit 101,Christopher Browning shows that it was not just Nazis used to massacre and round up Jews for deportation to the Nazi death camps in German-occupied Polande in 1942. The conclusion of the book was that the men of Unit 101 were not demons or Nazi fanatics but ordinary middle-aged men of working-class background from Hamburg, who had been drafted but found unfit for military duty. In some cases, these men were ordered to round up Jews and if there was not enough room for them on the trains, to shoot them. In other, more chilling cases, they were ordered to merely kill a specified number of Jews in a given town or area. The commander of the unit gave his men the choice of opting out of this duty if they found it too unpleasant; the majority chose not to exercise that option, resulting in fewer than 15 men out of a battalion of 500 opting out of their grisly duties and they were not shot but returned to traffic duties in their home city. Browning argued that the men of Unit 101 killed out of a basic obedience to authority and peer pressure, not blood-lust or primal hatred. My point in bringing this to your attention is that to keep talking as if Nazis alone carried out the "Final Solution" or the wider massacres of Gypsies, Russian prisoners, Polish churchmen and intellectual is in error. Ordinary Germans and many other Europeans helped in this destruction for a wide variety of reasons. The Holocaust and widespread massacres cannot be simply attributed to Nazis. That is too convenient a let out clause for wider anti-semitism in Europe and a wider hatred of gypsies and communists and religious minorities (ie. Jehovah's Witnesses), a revival of which can be found in Europe today. If we fail to learn the lessons of history we surely risk repeating them !
Are we debating at cross purposes? Is the issue the action of the systematic killing of Jews -- Yes or No? Or is the issue the NSDAP policy of Eugenics for the dual purposes of creating a genetically homorganic society, coupled with the political device of giving the Volk unity through a common scapegoat? Holocaust denial seems predicated on the first issue, with the answer being a resounding NO. But the preponderance of evidence points to YES. As to the second issue, I cite it so as to bring a greater understanding as to why this happened. Is this a fair assessment?
Of course the issue is the "targeted" systematic extermination of the Jews and probably the Gypsies too can be included in this as a sop to East European allies of Germany- that is the Holocaust. with a big "H" - the wider extermination of Russian prisoners, Polish intellectuals and the Polish Catholic religious as well as other massacres is part of a general European holocaust - small "h" . To identify the triggers of both must include NSDAP policy of Eugenics, but must also find its roots in both traditional anti-semitism linked to the 19th century pseudo-science of social Darwinism and racial biology. So I would argue that your question splits hairs. Both are linked in the attempted destruction of European Jews. "The Jewish Question" however, still exists in the minds of many on both the Left and the Right in European politics today. Today it is back to the old chestnut of Jewish control of the media and World finance. An old Rabbi was arrested by the Gestapo in 1938. In his pocket he had a copy of Der Sturmer. Why asked the Gestapo was he reading a Nazi anti-semitic newspaper. Well said the old Rabbi in the Jewish press it complains that Jews are marginalised, their goods and valuables seized, driven out of their professions and homes, abused and beaten. On the other hand said the old Rabbi in Der Sturmer it says Jews rule the world, they are rich, they have great power to corrupt and manipulate nations and their beautiful women seduce the youth of the lands they strangle with their crafty intelligence. The Jewish newspapers depress me, said the old Rabbi, but after reading Der Sturmer I feel much better about being a Jew.
Fifteen to twenty years ago I found several back numbers of a "rag" placed in the free weekly/monthly newspapers often found in library entryways. The banner was so provocative that I picked up the few diverse numbers to read at leisure at home. It was certainly an eye-opening experience. I had read about such periodicals but never held one in my hands before, and I used to read Pravda and Investia, even the occasional Krokodil. The "rag" proclaimed the be THE TRUTH AT LAST. Odd, for, in short, I found scant truth in it. Though from the American South it seemed reminiscent of the writing of Der Sturmer. Anti-Jewish sentiment is not limited the Nazi regime, their constituency, or even Europe.
Because Holocaust deniers and Neo-Nazis are lunatics who should be locked into a psychiatric hospital for a while until they have been cured. Try check out for example this http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175373&page=262 thread from page 262 till the last page and you will see lunatics like 'bob1', 'torus', 'lizzy', 'tinyint', 'believenothing', 'positive forward', 'ponzi nemesis', 'georgesmiley', 'lets blow', and 'resistance' promoting their holocaust denial propaganda
How is Israel involved? I thought it was only Rothschilds like Prescott Bush and people behind Bank of England who financed Hitler's war campaign http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/oct/17/20031017-110534-8149r/ http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n2224.cfm http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
