Would Roosevelt have declared war on Germany, if Hitler didn't declare war on the U.S. ?

Discussion in 'World War 2' started by blindwarrior, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. blindwarrior

    blindwarrior Member

    I'm skeptical. Mainly because Roosevelt didn't want to involve America in another one of Europe's wars. Sure he was sending aid to the British and constantly keeping correspondence with Churchill and Stalin, but most of the signs point to the fact that he never really wanted to commit significant amounts U.S. troops to European war effort.
    Japan was another cookie, it was clear that the U.S. had to respond, but had the Germans broken ties with them, the war in Europe might have lasted longer than 5 years.
     
  2. R Leonard

    R Leonard Active Member

    He would have eventually sought a declaration of war from Congress (couldn't do it on his own, you know, clearly a constitutional issue - Congress must declare war, not the President). Probably sooner rather than later. The USN was already in a shooting war against the Kriegsmarine in the Atlantic. A small escalation and there would be little choice.
     
  3. blindwarrior

    blindwarrior Member

    I have no doubt that it would have eventually escalated to that, but for the time being all signs pointed to the fact that he was happy with where the U.S. stood. It was also no secret that he didn't think much of British imperialism.
     
  4. R Leonard

    R Leonard Active Member

    Roosevelt's opinion of British imperialism had nothing to do with it. He, and Churchill together in concert for that matter, had already identified Nazi Germany as the "main enemy" and US war planning already called for a Europe first strategy. All he needed was something, anything, to convince a majority of both houses of Congress to pass a declaration of war.

    Obviously, the longer he waited, the better the US position from a military/naval standpoint, but I have no doubt - and I am not in any way offering a criticism - any reasonable pretext would have been enough. It would have equally dangerous to wait too long.
     
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  5. blindwarrior

    blindwarrior Member

    If he wanted to commit to a war he could have convinced congress a lot faster, but the majority of the American populations view was that it didn't want to get involved in another one of Europe's wars, neither did he. His discussions with Churchill were more or less a tactic of stringing him along. Churchill's meetings and correspondence with Roosevelt left him frustrated more often than not.
     
  6. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    Nobody would know for sure.

    However, since Pearl Harbor, there was no way the U.S. would not declare war on Japan. It also would be unlikely for Hitler not to declare war on the U.S. after Japan did, since Hitler signed pack with the Japanese. Not to mention that US navy guarding the shipping lanes and convoys were already fighting Germany submarines. Plus all the supplies the U.S. sent to UK and USSR. The U.S. was really already involved in the war in Europe, just not directly with their own troops. It would be stupid for Hitler not to declare war on the U.S. when Japan already started the fighting. It would allow the U.S. to focus on one front at a time.
     
  7. R Leonard

    R Leonard Active Member

    Isolationism leading up to the US entry into the war is a popular misconception. Certainly when compared to late 1940 the number show a sharp increase (in Dec 1940 only 17% agreed with the necessity to eventually enter the war) by the fall of 1941 reality was facing all but the most confirmed ostriches –

    Gallup Poll #248 in September 1941
    Americans believed that the country was already involved in the war 55%
    Believed FDR was doing the right thing with his actions 55%
    Believed FDR was NOT DOING ENOUGH 20%
    Approved of firing on German submarines 60%
    Believed American democracy and German fascism could not co-exist 70%

    Gallup Poll #250 in October 1941
    In favor of the US continue to help the UK even if it risked war in Europe 66%
    Believed more important more important to defeat Germany than to stay out of the war 66%

    Gallup Poll # 254 in November 1941
    In favor of defeating Hitler, winning war 72%
    In favor of keeping out of war 2%
    In favor of arming merchant ships 82%
    In favor of American ships entering the war zones 61%.

    Note the following events:

    Lend Lease (March 1941)
    Bases for Destroyers
    Eliminated “cash and carry” of the pre-war Neutrality Acts

    United States Western Hemisphere Security Zone April 10, 1941 – extension to 26°W longitude including Greenland and the Azores
    Extended the MOMP to where USN ships would turn over convoys to the RN

    Niblank Incident (April 1941) in the belief it had been, itself fired upon, the USS Niblack dropped 3 depth charges at a German U-boat

    Initiation of Observation Patrols (April 1941) This would allow US forces to observe Axis naval and merchant shipping and broadcast locations and observations “in the clear,” sure to be heard by the Royal Navy.

    Robin Moor Sunk (21 May 1941) U-boat sinks U.S. merchant the Robin Moor (May 21).

    21 June 21 1941 – Hitler orders Kriegsmarine elements, primarily U-boats, to avoid contact with USN elements after the near attack on USS Texas: "Führer orders avoidance any incident with USA during next few weeks. Order will be rigidly obeyed in all circumstances. In addition attacks till further orders will be restricted to cruisers, battleships, and air craft carriers and then only when identified beyond doubt as hostile. Fact that warship is sailing without lights will not be regarded as proof of enemy identity." [Dönitz,]

    Occupation of Iceland by US forces (July 1941)

    Atlantic Charter (August 1941)

    Sessa Sinking (17 August 1941)

    Steel Seafarer Sinking (5 September 1941)

    Greer Incident (4-5 September 1941) U-652 fires two torpedoes at the shadowing USS Greer, misses. Greer responds with a depth charge attack inflicting minor damage. Both sides break off action.

    Shoot on Sight Order (11 September 1941) After Greer attack, Roosevelt orders USN warships to a shoot on sight posture against U-boats. A Gallup poll subsequently showed 62 percent of Americans approved the President's action.

    More sinking of US Merchants
    11 September 1941 SS Montana
    19 September 1941 SS Pink Star (US Reg/Panama flagged)
    17 September 1941 SS I C White (US Reg/Panama flagged)
    16 October 1941 SS W C Teagle (US Reg/Panama flagged)
    16 October 1941 SS Bold Venture (US Reg/Panama flagged)
    19 October 1941 SS Lehigh

    USS Kearny Incident (16- 19 October 1941) - Kearney, responding to U-boat attacks within the US Security Zone, drops depth charges and is, in return torpedoed. Damaged and with 11 dead and 22 wounded the ship limps back to Iceland.

    USS Ruben James (31 October 1941) U-boat sinks destroyer Reuben James inside the Security Zone. 115 killed.

    Arming Merchantmen (November 1941) Roosevelt proposes authorized arming of US flagged merchant vessels and lifts restrictions on US flagged ships entering belligerent ports.

    Final Revisions of the Neutrality Act (November 1941) Final end of Neutrality Act. Both houses of Congress approve arming of US merchant vessels and their passage entry to declared war zone and belligerent ports.

    All in all a steady march to war with a steadily rising approval rate.
     
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  8. blindwarrior

    blindwarrior Member

    Those supplies were sent as aid that would be paid back after the war was over, so it wasn't a totally altruistic reason. Also I wouldn't have considered it a stupid move, it would have given him some much needed time to strengthen his positions in the west and deal with the trouble in the east.
     
  9. skyblue

    skyblue Active Member

    I'm just learning about this war, so pardon me if I state the obvious. One reason I am here is to learn more. I'm afraid I didn't get much history in school but I have developed a taste for it later in life, seeing it's importance in understanding how the world has developed over time. I think I've found the right place to learn!

    I think there was no way we could have avoided war with Germany, in light of it's growing aggression in Europe, sinking of merchant ships, etc. Regardless of anti-imperial sentiment, there was no way we would allow the British to be overtaken.

    Those are some interesting Gallop Poll stats, R. Leonard. Thanks for posting such good data. Hitler really was one power hungry dictator and I am glad we helped put him down.
     
  10. Vladimir

    Vladimir Siberian Tiger

    In my opinion, quite unlikely. Unlike the other Allied powers like the USSR and UK, the US didn't had any territorial ambition. And unlike Stalin who treated the Soviet soldiers like dogs, Roosevelt was firmly against the war, which would cause unwanted deaths and injuries to American soldiers.
     
  11. R Leonard

    R Leonard Active Member

    I think your impression of Roosevelt is all too altruistic.

    No one in their right mind is in favor of going to war and as the then serving national leader, the thought of sending the young men and women of his nation off to potential death or dismemberment was certainly not something over which he rubbed his hands with gleeful expectation.

    The reality of the situation was that the US was going to war already with the Japanese and the logical expectation was that declared conflict with their, the Japanese, that is, ally, Nazi Germany, could not be far behind. Not a matter of if, strictly a matter of when. And Roosevelt well recognized the eventuality.

    I might suggest looking to lend lease, the Atlantic Charter, shoot on sight orders, arming of merchant vessels, changing US neutrality laws to allow US flagged merchant vessels into combat zones and belligerent ports would seem to be paving stones on the way to war. We can add to that allowing damaged Royal Navy warships to be repaired and refitted in US shipyards and, more importantly, the already sharing of intelligence and the war strategy coordination planning taking place between the British Imperial Staff and the US joint commanders.

    As for territorial ambitions, it was not a matter of any US territorial ambitions, it was the matter of Nazi Germany's (and of course the Japanese' and to an extent the Italian's) territorial ambitions.

    Let there be no doubt in anyone's mind, US and Germany were going to war, sooner rather than later, and Roosevelt knew it and was planning for it.

    Lastly, one should be careful not to ascribe too much authority to Roosevelt. Declarations of war are, as noted in an above posting, are strictly the province of Congress. The president cannot "declare war" on anybody.
     
  12. StephenM1066

    StephenM1066 New Member

    The biggest favor Hitler ever gave to Great Britain was Germany's declaration of war against the U.S. on Dec. 9th, 1041. While I firmly believe that war between the U,S. and Nazi Germany was inevitable Hitler's rash declaration of war allowed the U.S. to go on a total war footing earlier than otherwise would have been possible. Isolationism in the U.S. was very popular at that time but even isolationists couldn't argue against an actual declaration of war by Hitler.
    Roosevelt had always felt that the main theatre of WWII would be in Europe. The proof of our "Eurocentrism" lies in the fact that roughly 85% of our war effort went to the European Theatre of Operations, while only the remaining 15% went to fight the Japanese. (These figures are from memory and so may lack newer info.) Americans fighting in the Pacific frequently voiced their dissatisfaction withe the lack of support they received.
     
  13. StephenM1066

    StephenM1066 New Member

    I need to correct my error in the posting above. Hitler declared war on the U.S. on Dec. 11, 1941.
     

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